Transforming Parenting with Positive Discipline

In this conversation, Christina shares her journey into positive discipline, explaining its principles and how it differs from traditional punitive methods. She discusses the importance of understanding children's behavior through the lens of mistaken goals and the impact of childhood experiences on adult behavior. The conversation also addresses common misconceptions about positive discipline, the differences between gentle parenting and positive discipline, and the significance of respect and boundaries in parenting. Christina offers practical advice for parents looking to incorporate positive discipline at home, while also acknowledging the cultural perspectives that influence discipline practices. The discussion concludes with encouragement for overwhelmed parents and resources for further learning.

Lisa Weiss (00:00)

Hello everyone and welcome to Brave Minds, Healing Anxiety and Trauma. The podcast brought to you by Brave Minds Psychological Services in New Jersey. On this podcast, we explore the journey of healing, resilience and mental well-being. Whether you're navigating anxiety, processing trauma or supporting someone who is, you are in the right place. I'm Lisa Weiss. I'm a licensed mental health professional here at Brave Minds and in each episode we'll dive into real conversation expert insights, and practical tools to help you better understand your mind and support your healing process. Today, I'm chatting with Cristina Varriale about positive discipline. What it really is, how it's different from traditional parenting, and why it's such a powerful shift for both kids and parents. We'll talk about the deeper reasons behind kids' behavior, how our own childhoods show up in our parenting, and how to set respectful and healthy boundaries at home. Cristina also clears up some common myths and shares practical tips for overwhelmed parents trying to do things differently. So before we begin, please remember that this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. It's not intended to diagnose, treat, or replace professional mental health care. If you're in crisis or need support, please reach out to a qualified provider. You're not alone in this, you're healing matters. So go grab your coffee, take a deep breath, and let's jump in.

Lisa Weiss (01:21)

I am so excited to talk to you today, Cristina, about positive discipline and learning more about it and for our listeners to learn more about it. So can you tell us more just about your background and how you came to specialize in positive discipline?

Cristina Varriale (01:35)

Sure, absolutely. So my journey into positive discipline started about 10 years ago when I moved to Germany. I moved to Germany when I was 36. I had been working as a school counselor and a campus minister at a Catholic high school. I think a lot of women out there will hear me when I say, you have that one or two years where everyone you know gets married. So I had just kind of come off that everyone was getting married, having babies and buying houses, and I was just like going on bad dates in New York City. So I had always wanted to experience other cultures. Like I always had this like thirst of traveling the world. So I happened to be, I was working on a master's degree and one of my professors had told me he had just gotten back from teaching in Mallorca. And I was like, how did you do that? So he got me connected. I went to a job fair and I ended up taking a job in Baum, Germany at an international school. And the first training that they sent me on was to London to learn about positive discipline. And it was, yeah, it was, I mean, it was a world so unknown to me. I mean, it was so far from how I grew up in a very like working class neighborhood, like, you know, my mother was first generation, my dad was second generation American. And so like this whole world, it was so far into me, this world of international schools. I didn't even know that it was possible. teach, you know, unless you're teaching English, I had no idea that this world even existed. So yeah, and it was incredible. So they had a wonderful budget for learning. And they said, Hey, like, we think this would be a great workshop for you. And it was life changing. And it's funny, Lisa, like it was life changing in more than one way, because that weekend that I learned about positive discipline, was also the week and my godsend was born. And it was the first time I feel like I'm gonna get like, choked up talking about it. It was the, so he's my first nephew and I don't have children of my own and just my sister has three kids and I just love them so much. And they're the reason I ended up moving back. Like I lived three years in Germany, three years in Japan and I just couldn't stand to be away from them anymore. So I moved back to be close to them. But it just, worked out because like it really, it changed everything about how I think about relationships or how I think about children and how I think about power. Like I think that was what was the most life-changing part of positive discipline, was it really reframed what power is. Because positive discipline is really rooted in this idea of shared power and like collaboration, cooperation, traditional discipline or punishment was always like popped down and about power over. And this really helped me learn to really collaborate with young people. And as I said, it was so life changing because I didn't grow up this way. I certainly didn't grow up with positive discipline. So it was very new, but some of it just clicked and really made so much sense. I did my first training in January, and I went back in March to do more training. became a trainer, like it was just like, just couldn't stop. would just, made so much sense to me.

 

Lisa Weiss (04:46)

Wow, and that's amazing too that it did resonate with you. And I am so curious, and especially for others that are unfamiliar with it, how would you define positive discipline? I know you talked a little bit about it, but just overall, what is it all about?

Cristina Varriale (05:00)

Mm-hmm. So it was developed by Dr. Jane Nelson, and she's an Adlerian psychologist. So just to do like a little, you know, psychoeducation, as we love to do as therapists. So Alfred Adler was a contemporary of Sigmund Freud. Freud, all know, is the father of psychology, but also, you know, had some problematic theories, you know, like that if you had a bad childhood, like you were just doomed for the rest of your life. And Adler rejected that. Like Adler believed that every social relationship in a child's life had the capacity to be, you know, part of how they grew up and could be. So even if there was an issue like in their immediate family, other relationships could have such a positive impact. And then he started working. One of his protegees was Rudolph Dreikers. And Dreikers understood what research has now proven again and again and again, and that is human beings have and an innate desire for connection and belonging. And Adler really believed that if a child was misbehaving, it was because they were discouraged. So they were not feeling a connection or a sense of belonging in that moment. So positive discipline is really about discipline in its true sense. And the word discipline, it comes from being a disciple, a follower, and a student, essentially. Discipline's all about teaching. And I think that's what resonated the most with me because, you know, I love being a therapist and I think I'm also a teacher in my heart forever. I was a teacher for so long. And, my last few years teaching in Queens, I started to really recognize that punishment wasn't effective because it was like the same kids that were in detention over and over again. So I was like, this isn't it. This is not working. And I, at the time, still very much believed in the behavioral approach, which is what we used to train dogs with. I thought that it was a good idea to train kids with the same way. But I was all in on punishments and rewards. So even though I started to see punishment was ineffective, I still thought rewards or positive reinforcement was the answer. And positive reinforcement rejects all of that. Like there's no punishments, but there's also no rewards. It's really about shared power. It's about mutual respect. It's about being kind and firm at the same time. It's about teaching life skills. And it's about really showing children how capable they are and how they can use their power in constructive ways.

Lisa Weiss (07:31)

That is so wonderful and especially coming from the perspective of a child therapist, what a great approach and throwing the reward charts out the window.

Cristina Varriale (07:40)

Like when I see those behavior charts, my goodness, like my skin crawls.

Lisa Weiss (07:44)

Yeah, yeah, and especially thinking about how they, even in classrooms still to this day, are set up and they're so public and the impact that can have on children. But that's a story for another day. And you had mentioned too, so how is positive discipline different from the traditional or punitive form of discipline?

Cristina Varriale (08:02)

So I remember it took me, I took psychology for the first time in high school, Lisa, and I took it again in college, and then I did a master's. And it was not, I swear, it was not until I did my master's that I was able to differentiate between punishment and negative reinforcement. Like I used to always get them confused. But what finally clicked for me was the actual definition of punishment is to stop a behavior. That is the intention. Punishment is meant to stop a behavior. And in that sense, it can be effective, but it's normally temporary because you're not teaching the correct behavior or the desirable behavior instead. And you're taking away a tool. Imagine a baby crying. So a baby is crying because they need something. If you put tape over a kid's mouth and they can't cry anymore, you're taking away their tool. So in positive discipline, it doesn't punish the bad behavior, it investigates, it's curious. It's why is this behavior happening? And then we teach more proactive ways for whatever the desire or the need is to be met.

Lisa Weiss (09:08)

That is so wonderful and such a great way of looking at it and that sort of way of being like, do we like kiddos have these tools or these resources and how do we really tailor that to like a more effective or better behaviors, those sorts of things.

Cristina Varriale (09:25)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And effective, I think, is a good word. Because we know that when a child acts out, they do have a goal. I know I'm jumping all over the place now, but Dreykers had this theory of the mistaken goal. And he felt that when kids are misbehaving, it's likely because they have an unmet need. And he broke it down into four what he called mistaken goals.

So one is undue attention. So this is maybe the child that's like, "Mom, mom, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy." And what he theorized is that their sense of belonging comes from attention. That if you're not paying attention to me, then I don't feel like I belong. So then it's trying to teach that child other ways of belonging.

Misguided power, and this was mine. This was definitely mine as a kid. Misguided power is like, "You can't make me." You know, I am I'm late diagnosed ADHD so I definitely had that a pervasive drive for autonomy, shall we say. So I was definitely like a "you can't make me" kind of kid and you know that mistaken goal is what "I only belong if I'm calling the shots." So like in that situation their strategies on how to teach that child again, like how to use their power in ways that are constructive.

There's revenge. So I feel hurt. So now I'm going to have to hurt you back because I don't feel belonging unless I know that I can make you feel as bad as I feel.

And then the last one is the one that I always, I think, struggle with the most because I saw it so much when I was teaching. This was assumed inadequacy, assumed inadequacy. So like when a child just doesn't think that they're good enough or that they can't, so why bother trying. And again, like I saw it so much in schools and you know, like these were the kids who like on the surface, they might look like they're lazy and they're not, like they're scared and they're hurt.

Lisa Weiss (11:11)

So. Yeah, and shut down. And it really makes me think of that low self-esteem or that low self-efficacy, their belief in themselves to do well. So I love that you've been able to lay out these four particular things for people, especially for parents to listen in on or teachers, really any adults. Because I'm sure even probably coaches see these things too in some form or another.

Cristina Varriale (11:49)

Absolutely. I I joke all the time. I feel like I use these strategies with adults more than I use them with kids. Because I remember being on a retreat once years ago. Actually, it was on anger. And the woman giving the retreat said that when you're wounded, a lot of times when that particular wound gets triggered, you go back to the age you were when

Lisa Weiss (12:14)

Absolutely.

Cristina Varriale (12:15)

experienced that, right? So I just think there are so many people walking this planet that are just carrying so much, you know, like carrying so much trauma and hurt and pain and like they're doing their best to get by. And a lot of times like, you know, when we see, you know, these, you know, these adults having meltdowns or acting out or being very unkind. I think many times like our human reaction is for us kind of also to go back to like our childhood ways, but we know how to self-regulate. So we take a breath and I see so much now, like when I see an adult like that, I see the kid behind it, you know? So I do feel like I use these strategies, like not just with kids, I use them in all of my relationships.

Lisa Weiss (13:04)

That makes so much sense too, and just like to think of the reparative work of like what that can do for somebody and like nurturing or reparenting that inner child when they have this sort of understanding. So, and I love that, like, cause this is not only relatable to kids, it's relatable to adult clients as well.

Cristina Varriale (13:21)

Yep, absolutely, I found so much healing in doing this work, personal healing as well. Because it's like most of us were not raised with positive discipline. And most of us grew up in households where conflict was scary. Conflict was either like yelling, hitting, throwing, or it was complete silence. And all of that is scary for a child. So we're not modeling skills for children to like be able to maneuver conflict and challenging conflict. I was so conflict averse for the longest time, Lisa. Like I was such a people pleaser and I just wanted to avoid conflict. And like, we know what happens. Like we know that adults who avoid conflict end up being adults who gossip, who are passive aggressive, who, you know, just... who are not able to handle conflict like adults. So like this work was so reparative for me personally and with also having so much compassion for my mom and dad because they didn't grow up with positive discipline either, you know? So, you know, and we tend to teach what we learn and, you know, and I really feel for, you know, parents in this generation because I see, like I see it in my sister so much, I see it in my friends, that they are trying to be the cycle breakers and it's so hard, you know, like it's just so hard because it's when you're tired and you know, who's not tired? Like I don't know any mom who's not exhausted these days, like because I mean, if you're not, I mean, most parents I know are working outside the home as well as all the work that they're doing inside the home. And in everything going on in the world, it's so hard to be a kid these days. Can you imagine? I'm 48, right? So cell phones were not a thing when I was a kid. Maybe I got bullied in school, but I could go home and get a break. Whereas these kids, it's nonstop. It's just they're always accessible. And that's so much on a parent. So you have a parent dealing with all of these realities. And then also trying to break the cycle of what they grew up with and like trying to do better by their kids. And it's it's not easy. It's not easy.

Lisa Weiss (15:40)

No, it's definitely not. And I love that you're saying this, though, because it gives them grace, we're encouraging to give yourself some grace, especially because it's a whole other time and being a cycle breaker takes a lot of energy and a lot of pausing and unlearning and then relearning. Which does bring me to my next question just for parents and caregivers. What are some common misconceptions that parents have about positive discipline?

Cristina Varriale (16:07)

So the biggest misconception I see is that it's about permissiveness, that it's like, kids are the boss, and they get to do whatever they want. And that's not it. I mean, that's a misunderstanding. That might be a misinterpretation or even a mishandling. But positive discipline is really, it's all about being kind and firm at the same time. So we're not humiliating children, we're not shaming them, we're not putting hands on them. We are setting boundaries though. And the way that we're setting boundaries is we're teaching our kids how to set boundaries for themselves too. Like we're teaching them how to respect boundaries and also how to set their own boundaries, which is really important.

Lisa Weiss (16:49)

Such a valuable skill.

Cristina Varriale (16:50)

Yeah, I mean, I, as I said, like, I am obsessed with my niece and my nephews. Like, I love them so much. And I have never hugged them without first saying, "Can I give you a hug?" I just, because like, and especially, I think, because I lived so far away the first few years of their life, like, I would go maybe six months without seeing them. So it's like, I kind of, felt like I had to reintroduce myself every time I saw them. And I just remember these, like, I remember being a kid and being forced to, like, show affection or like, people used to pinch my cheeks and I hated it. I was like, why are you touching me? I expected that I was a child, so therefore I didn't have any say over my body. That's, I mean, we teach kids at an early age about consent. We teach them about boundaries. So, yeah, so I think the biggest misconception is that it's just like a free for all and completely permissive. That's not the case at all.

Lisa Weiss (17:42)

Which I think too, like especially there are a lot of people who criticize like gentle parenting. So I'm so curious from your perspective and I'm throwing you a curve ball here, but like for our listeners, like what is the difference between or is there a difference between gentle parenting and positive discipline?

Cristina Varriale (18:01)

So it's funny that you asked that. I mean, I don't call myself an expert in anything. I hate the word expert. I just feel like we're all lifelong learners. I just, I roll my eyes any time someone's like, "Here comes the expert." I'm like, "No, you're not. You have a lot of experience, but there's still more to learn." So I, to be honest, I haven't taken any workshops or anything in gentle parenting. I only can go by what I've seen on social media. And from what I've seen on social media, a lot of the strategies are the same. It's about co-regulation. Jane Nelson, one of my favorite quotes from the positive discipline book is, Jane says, "Where did we ever get the crazy idea that in order for a child to do better, we should first make them feel worse?" And I just was like, of course. I mean, because again, for so long, I feel like children were looked at as mini adults. And they're just not. We know that.

Lisa Weiss (18:48)

Absolutely.

Cristina Varriale (18:51)

Like we know from neuroscience that their brains do not finish developing until they're in their mid-20s. You know, which is so wild. That's what every intake I do with the kid, like I do that whole like demonstration for them on the brain. So co-regulation like is so key. So we're not going to, you know, shame, humiliate because would that help you? If we were in a job and we made a mistake at work and our boss called us out at a staff meeting, would you leave that staff meeting thinking, "My god, that was so helpful. I'll never make that mistake."

Lisa Weiss (19:28)

Absolutely not, I would be so shut down and embarrassed. Exactly!

Cristina Varriale (19:32)

Exactly. So, you know, I was actually at one of my friend's house a few weeks ago and she has two little boys and the older boy went and like, how the little boys do? Like just knocked his little younger brother right in the face. And she grabbed his hand and she took him into another room, had a talk with him. And then he came up and he came out to his brother and he said, "I'm sorry." And it was just... And then there didn't have to be yelling. There was no humiliation. It was so respectful. It was just such a respectful way to handle that. What I feel like parents, what I love for parents to think about is you're teaching them how to be an adult someday. Because you're modeling for them what respect looks like. One of the questions I, or not a question, but like a statement I'll hear sometimes from parents is like, "When I was a kid, I just respected my elders." And I'll always say, "Did you respect them or were you afraid of them?"

Lisa Weiss (20:27)

That's a great question.

Cristina Varriale (20:29)

And "they were afraid of them." Oh, that's the answer I get. I just think, I mean, Lisa, you know me. I'm going to just keep it real. That's messed up that we have taught people that respect is fear. I just feel like that's why the world is the way it is, because we have misrepresented what respect is. Respect is not, "I'm scared of you." Respect is, "I admire you, and you have dignity as a human being and I recognize that in you. So therefore, I'm going to treat you as such. And I'm going to be treated as such as well because I also possess inherent dignity and worth because I'm human." That's it. Doesn't matter if I'm three days or three years or 93. I have inherent worth and deserve to be treated kindly because of that. That's respect. So when we treat these mistakes that kids make in a way that's respectful, we are really teaching them what respect actually is. And we're teaching them how to be respectful.

Lisa Weiss (21:31)

And I think too, with what you're saying about just like being fearful of parents or caregivers, that doesn't set these kiddos up for success, you know, as the years go on with wanting to be able to create space for. You know, something comes up, the kiddo is not going to want to or not feel safe enough to talk to parents about something that's come up because they are fearful of that particular parent or caregiver. So I think starting these things young, like building this relationship early on is so vital, throughout, you know, early childhood, adolescence, even late adolescence and that transition to college and young adulthood.

Cristina Varriale (22:08)

Absolutely, because you are like you're building trust. I mean it's and again like and I don't want to blame parents because again, we teach what we learn and so many of us like where we grew up in very punitive ways. But like but you know when I have parents of some of my clients come in and say, "I got their beans. They're lying. They're lying all the time." Like I'm always curious like, "Well what happens when they tell the truth?" So, you know, like can we like so like that's why there's such there's such a focus on problem solving in positive discipline. It's not you made a mistake, so now you're punished, or you made a mistake, so there is something inherently wrong with you. It's you made a mistake, let's figure out what happens, and how are we going to fix this mistake, and then how are we going to do better in the future.

Lisa Weiss (22:56)

I love that and staying curious. And that's something I tell or I talk to my clients and I talk to parents about all the time is just that curiosity can be so helpful rather than coming from a place of like, "That's too much and now I'm angry." And going off of what you said, I'm curious, how can parents start incorporating positive discipline at home, especially when they were raised with strict or punitive methods themselves?

Cristina Varriale (23:22)

So I have always been a very curious person. So for me, like understanding how or why things work is really important. And I think the reason I took to this so much also was that the training was so experiential. Like we had so many activities, like where you put yourself back in the shoes of a child and you remember like how you felt in certain situations. And then you're like, "I don't want to make my kids feel that way, or I don't want to my students feel that way." So like, I would start with like, read the book, or, you know, or follow them on social media, you know, learn a little bit about the brain and why it's effective. And then I would focus on co-regulation. Like that, that to me is, is the key because I think especially for parents who were raised with this very like, power over, you know, it's very human. You'd like, "Well, look, I paid my dues. Like, I got bossed around. I did what I was supposed to do. Like, now it's my turn." Like, that's a very human reaction to have. Again, I'm just going to jump a little bit. One of the things that blew my mind on that workshop was we learned about Dan Siegel's brain in the palm of the hand. I'd love to just do that demonstration really quickly, because again, every intake that I do, I do this demonstration. Because it just, to me, is so helpful in understanding how our brains work. So basically, and please, go see Dan Siegel do this yourself. I'll do a mediocre job, but go on YouTube and you'll see him do it. He's phenomenal. But basically, we put up our hands, and we're going to say this represents our brain. So we're going to say that my wrist here represents the base of our brain. That's the oldest part, also sometimes called the reptilian brain. And that's the part that keeps us alive. That is what our breathing, our digestion, circulation, all the things that our body does that we don't have to tell it to do comes from this part. And then this is where we also have our fight or flight response. Like I'll say to kids, "Back when we were living in the cave, if a bear came up to us, we would have a choice to make. We would either try to fight or we would run away." And that like that still exists and now you know through our research and trauma, we also know that we have two other responses. So we have we still have the fight or flight, but we also have freeze like which you know if anyone's been driving around up in our part of the woods and a deer comes out. You know, they like freeze for a second before they keep running. And then there's fawning and fawning like those are your people pleasers. So those are the kiddos who feel safe when everyone around them is happy. So they just try to like make everyone that that's their like survival technique. So I'm going to fold my thumb over and this is the mid part of our brain. And my thumb here is the amygdala and that's the feeling part. So we had our earliest memories in this stored in this part. And that's where we have all of our emotions. And it's this part of our brain that can activate fight or flight. So now I'm to fold my hand over. This is the frontal lobe and my fingertips here are the prefrontal cortex. And the prefrontal cortex is the thinking brain. And that is the part of the brain where we have our executive function, time management, organization, cost benefit analysis, you know, like being able to think about the consequences of our choices. And this is the part of our brain that we've only learned in the past 30 years does not finish developing until around the age of 25. So like the structures are there, but the pathways, the neural pathways are still developing and strengthening. So kids, that's, I mean, like when you think about like when a kid does something, you know, outrageous and the parents like, "Why did you do that?" And they go, "I don't know." They're not lying. Like they don't know. It was just impulsive. Like it just kind of happened. And for adults, like even, you know, even for those of us that have that fully formed, you know, prefrontal cortex, in times of stress, if we're tired, if we're hungry, if it's too hot out, whatever, and someone says the wrong thing or looks at us the wrong way, we can flip our lid. So we lose connection with our thinking brain and we are just coming out of our emotional brain and then that's activating us to go into fight or flight. It's like when we see a kid having a meltdown. And I prefer to use that to tantrum. Like I know we often think of it as a tantrum, but it's when you think of it in this way about the brain, it really is, it's like a computer that got overloaded and it's melting down. Like that's what's happening for a child too. Like they got overloaded and they're melting down. So because there's no connection to the thinking brain, like you can't learn. So this is not the time to problem solve and like think about the mistake. The only thing to do in this situation is to help that child calm back down. The thing is, is when you have an adult who's been working all day, you know, something happened at work, their boss was whatever and, and their kids flipping, the adult can flip too. So now you got two dysregulated people. So, and this is where like it does kind of fall on the adults because they do have the stronger neural pathways there. It's up to them to first self-regulate and then to try to co-regulate. So that can look differently for different people. That could look like, "I need five minutes, so I'm going to go into my room. I'm going to take some deep breaths, and then I'm going to come back and we're going to talk about it." Or it could be like, "You know what? We're both really upset. How about a hug? We're both really upset. How about we take 10 breaths together? We're both really upset. Here, here's a piece of paper. I'm thinking, let's just tear this piece of paper up together." There's so many strategies. But to me, that is the place to start, is if you can work on your self-regulation and not flipping your lid in front of your child, you're then able to help them when they melt down. And once you get that piece, frankly, I think the rest of it's kind of easy. The rest of the strategy, once you can get through that piece, once you can get that co-regulation piece down and you can stop yourself from like, flipping your lid and you can like help your kid when they're in the meltdown. Like that to me is such a victory. So I think my advice to parents would be like, start there, like work on that. And like, and once you get that down, then you can move on to the other stuff. But like that to me is like, so important. Like a person that can model self-regulation, like chef's kiss, amazing.

Lisa Weiss (29:51)

And as you said before, a parent's job too is to also be a teacher. So if we're teaching our kiddos that we can regulate, they also pick up on those sorts of things too. And if your kid's at 100, you're not trying to meet them there. That's not the goal. It's not going to work. And as you said before, losing access to that thinking part of the brain, also for teachers too to know that if a kiddo is in that state, that is not the time. Like they are not going to learn or absorb anything that's going on in that classroom setting. Being able to practice co-regulation in that setting as well, or having access to the counselor or things like that.

Cristina Varriale (30:21)

Mm-hmm. Exactly. It's funny, like after I learned that there was not a class that I ever started that I did not do that on the first day. Like every class I had, I did that demonstration on the first day and I gave my students permission that if they were having a tough day or something and they were about to flip their lid, all they had to do was do this and they had my permission to leave the classroom. I'm like, go get a glass of water, go to the counselor, like whatever. And it's so funny, every time I tell teachers that story, they're like, oh man, you must have had kids abusing it and doing it. I never had a child use it, ever. I never, ever, I used it. I never had a child use it, I used it. When my godson was baptized, my sister, wanted the baptism to be on our mom's birthday, because our mom passed when we were younger. So I flew home from Germany just for a weekend, just so that I could be at the christening. So I took a red eye back to Germany. I landed in Dusseldorf at 6 AM, took an Uber right to school. My seventh grade class just happened to be off the wall that day. And I was like, oh my god, I haven't slept. So I went like this.

Lisa Weiss (31:31)

My goodness. I love you

Cristina Varriale (31:42)

got out of my classroom. And I went in, like my office was just like two doors down. So I went into my office, took some deep breaths. I walked back in and it was like crickets. Like you could hear a pin drop. And I just said very calmly, "I feel very disrespected. So I want you to open your iPads and you're gonna read this. And I don't wanna hear any more noise. And we'll talk about this in our next class." And when I tell you Lisa, they, I did not hear a pin drop the rest of that classroom because it is almost, you know, like, I know it's not about scaring a child in a way though, it is scarier when you've got that calm voice, cause you're in control, right? Like when a person is, is screaming, it's obvious to the child that they're dysregulated. So like, it can be hard to take them seriously, but like when you come in and you are controlled and you say like, "This is what's up." like, she is not messing around. What page was that again? Okay.

Lisa Weiss (32:39)

Yes, she means business. I also think it's such a great tool too that like adults can use it in these settings because then it also teaches the kids that it's like, this is like this is an appropriate time or like I can use this because my teacher is using it or like mom is using it or dad is using it because they they need to regulate themselves too.

Cristina Varriale (32:42)

Yeah, I'm definitely, I'm telling you, my sister, like mother of three, like I have definitely witnessed her saying, "I need five minutes." I'm like, she'll go and I'll like "Team, come on, you're making your mother crazy. Like you gotta relax. Like we gotta get it together and come on, we gotta be a team." Yes.

Lisa Weiss (33:12)

Yeah, but I think too, it's just like, you know, teaching those kids that like you are allowed to use this kind of resource and like it is okay and it's normal to get dysregulated, but how do we bring ourselves back down?

Cristina Varriale (33:22)

Of course, of course. I mean, in this day and age, Lisa, I just feel like every day we are just hanging on for dear life. So like, it's, I just, find I'm like reaching deep into my depths to like have compassion for all the dysregulation I see, because I know like for myself, like it's so hard for me to keep it together with everything going on in the world right now. Like so. It's all about grace, grace and compassion for others and for ourselves.

Lisa Weiss (33:54)

Yes, it's easier, you know, sometimes it feels easier to give that to other people, but it's also important to give that to ourselves. Yeah, I think another important question that I had for you. So what advice do you have for parents who think or feel like positive discipline doesn't work or it quote unquote takes too long?

Cristina Varriale (34:13)

So that's definitely a question that I used to have, especially from teachers, because teachers would be like, "I don't have time to give personal attention when I'm in the classes." So one of the arguments I would make is that it may feel initially like it takes more time. And if you're actually, though, addressing the behavior in a way that's prosocial and teaching the skill so that the child does not have to resort to that behavior, you end up having more time because you're not, I mean, think about it. Would you rather yell at a kid every day for an entire school year, send them to the principal, get them to detention? Add up all that time. Or if you just keep them after class for three minutes and sit down eyeball to eyeball, I'm like, "What's going on? I can tell something's happening. How can I support you?" One of my favorite things to do or questions to ask a student was, "What's your plan?" It's like, "What's your plan to get this work done? Or what's your plan to get?" Because I'm putting it on them. I'm not giving them a deadline. I'm not threatening them. I'm being genuinely curious. And I think that's a big part of it. Like you said earlier, learning to be curious has, I've always been naturally curious. And I've also been a bit of a know-it-all. So I was curious about the things that I accept the ones that I knew everything about. And I feel like the older I get, and I remember my grandfather said this to me once. My grandfather said, "The older I get, the less I know." And I feel like that is the truest statement. Because I think if you really do approach life as a lifelong learner, you do realize there's just so much that you don't know. So just shut up and listen. Be curious and I feel like even like in our broken, you know, discourse in this country, like if we just could be more, show up with more genuine curiosity to each other, we could solve a lot of problems. So yes, like with kids, like that's one of my favorite tragedies, it's called curiosity questions. So like, "What's your plan to get your work done? You know, what's, you have a soccer game tomorrow, what do you need to be prepared for your soccer game?" Instead of like, "Here I'm your mom, I'm gonna wash your uniform, I'm lay everything out in your bed for you so that you, I'm gonna help you be responsible." "What do you need to get your stuff ready for your game tomorrow?"

Lisa Weiss (36:27)

Yes, and it's more of that like scaffolding rather than I'm going to do everything for you. It's like, "Let's look at this together. What are you going to do? And I'm sure like what kind of help do you need?" Rather than "Here, everything has already been done for you," because learning does not happen in that space either.

Cristina Varriale (36:44)

No, no, not at all. And I think that's what I really love about this too, because it's called positive discipline, but it's not even just about disciplining when mistakes are made. It's also about encouragement. I mean, one of the best activities that we did was this activity on praise versus encouragement. And it's just the tiniest little tweaks in language that can make such a difference. Like instead of saying, you know, "Oh, I'm so proud of you." "Wow, like you worked so hard. You should be so proud of yourself." I mean, I've had so many kids, like students in my life say like, "Oh, aren't you proud of me?" I'll be like, "Of course I am. And what's more important is are you proud of yourself? Like that's what matters. You should be proud of yourself." So that was such a small change in language and I think is so impactful for kids. Because again, helping them recognize how capable they are and helping them to not spend their life seeking external validation. How often do we see that also?

Lisa Weiss (37:52)

And it's especially true, I think, with social media and all the external validation that comes from that. So I think just that work, the tweak in that phrasing is so wonderful. It's such a simple place to start.

Cristina Varriale (38:05)

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know another another language change that I made was I really tried to not say the word but. We've all been on the receiving end of an apology that was like, "Well, I'm sorry, but..." It's like, "Well, then you're not sorry because now you're just dating everything that you just said." So instead of the word but I used and and it sounds awkward in the beginning. But I feel like the more you use it the more it starts to feel natural so

Lisa Weiss (38:21)

Yes?

Cristina Varriale (38:32)

You know, one of the other strategies that I love and that I use the most often, it's called connection before correction. So it's about validating. So like, let's say like you have a kiddo who's on their iPad and the alarm goes off, it's like time to put the iPad down. And like, "Oh no, no, no, like one more minute, one more minute." "I love you, I know you wanna keep playing that iPad. And we agreed that when the alarm went off, you would put it away. So you wanna put it away or would you like me to put it away for you?" And that's it. And we're not fighting. We're not screaming. We're not negotiating. We already negotiated. This was the agreement. This is the agreement now. When you make an agreement, you have to honor the agreement.

Lisa Weiss (39:10)

And that is such a big one, especially when it comes to like turning off the electronics. So I'm sure that will resonate with our listeners with, you know, just using that that phrasing so it doesn't turn into this whole process before bed or whatever it might be.

Cristina Varriale (39:26)

Yeah, another thing that Jane says in the book is that it's not our job to make children suffer. It is our job to allow them to suffer. And that really struck a chord with me also, because again, I see so many parents who are always rescuing their child. And of course, it's coming from such a great place. Who wants to see their children suffer? No one. And I would say this probably is the one that's the hardest for me. I went to see my nephew play soccer on Sunday, and I took my niece and my other nephew to the bathroom, and there was a vending machine. And they're like, "And Chris, can I get a drink?" And I'm like, "Yeah, get a drink." It's like my nephew goes to get a bottle of Pepsi and I was like, "Wait, are you allowed to drink soda?" He's like, "Yep." I'm like, "Okay." So I get him a Pepsi and I get my knees and Gatorade and we get back. I'm just like, "Where'd you get those? Why, why did you get them?" And I was like, "I think something could happen. I don't know." You know, so like, I like that one. It's like, of course, like, and especially as the aunt, like I just want to spoil the shit. It's very hard for me, but like, but I also do see like the, like the real wisdom, like.

Lisa Weiss (40:28)

First, yes

Cristina Varriale (40:33)

In the struggle, kids learn. They figure it out. They learn how to be resourceful, and they figure out how capable they are. And obviously, we're not going to put a kid in danger. We're not going let them suffer in a way that they could really be harmed. But if you say to a kid the night before, "What do you need to be prepared for tomorrow?" And they forget to pack their homework. Calling you and making you rush up there with their homework is not helpful. It's, "Oh, honey, I'm so sorry you forgot your homework. Let your teacher know that you just made a mistake when you're packing your bag and bring it tomorrow. And if she gives you points off, oh, well, then we'll remember next time." That, a way, at least this is the part that's so important too, is I can hear a parent saying that so sarcastically, because I could hear myself saying that sarcastically. When I lived overseas, I used to always joke around with people that I was fluent in two languages, English and sarcasm, because I'm a New Yorker. But it can be so cutting and so hurtful. So when we talk about the genuine curiosity, it's not that you're curious about the answer. You're curious if your child knows the answer. You know, so when we say things like, "I'm so sorry that happened," it's not like, "Well, I guess next time you'll remember." No, it's like, "I'm genuinely, like, I genuinely am sorry that you forgot that. And that's a tough lesson. And we'll figure out, when you get home today, we'll figure out a way to help you remember next time." And that's it. You like, you're not rescuing, and you're also not shaming. And your problem, like, again, it goes back to like, we're going to collaborate, we're going to problem solve. But I'm also not going to do it for you. Like, that's not going to be the answer.

Lisa Weiss (42:10)

Absolutely. No, I think that's such a wonderful example. And again, like such a relatable example that I'm sure parents and caregivers hear often. And that's just like one of those things where that that's like, unfortunately, a natural consequence to forgetting homework. But you know, we are we're gonna learn from this experience and remember next time. So just I had some other questions, too, and just like cultural and societal perspectives on positive discipline. So I'm curious too, how do cultural values influence the way positive discipline is perceived and practiced? And I know this is kind of a loaded question depending on like cultural perspectives, but yeah, I'm curious to just hear from you and your experiences.

Cristina Varriale (42:52)

Yeah, so I mean, this one is tricky because Lisa, I don't know if you know this, but in America, there are 19 states that still allow corporal, like explicitly allow for corporal punishment in schools. My goodness. I know, explicitly allow for it. And there are other states that don't have any laws that outlaw. Like, so it might not be explicit that like, yes, you can do this, but there's no like, definitely can't do this. And even in New Jersey, like what is legal? I mean, I was teaching a fifth grade class and talking about consent and who has the right to touch their bodies and who doesn't. And I had one child say, "I get hit with a belt." And I was like, that's not okay. So I called child services to inquire and they're like, "If there's no marks, like that's okay, they can do that." So it is tricky and you know, the same school that I worked, so this child happened to be African-American and I had talked to one of my African-American colleagues about this and she was also very much like on board with positive discipline, but she also then explained to me that especially families that came from the South, that this was very much a part of discipline because it was a way that they felt they could keep their children safe because of what they might experience in their communities. So it is really important to be cognizant of people's cultural values. And there's also solid research that shows how harmful corporal punishment can be. In situations like that, I always try to come from a place, again, of compassion and grace. I understand, like, yeah, this is, you know, I grew up in this way, like, this was the value, I, this was why that was a value, and I understand, like, keeping your child safe is so important, and can we, you know, would you be open to hearing about some other strategies that might also achieve the same goal, and also keep your relationship intact? Because, you know, and again, like as therapists, we see so many clients with so much childhood trauma, like even kids who grew up in like, what would appear to be like really stable functional families, a lot of, you know, that trauma came from corporal punishment, like, and not, I wouldn't even say it was abuse. Like, I don't think any of these clients would say that they were abused, but like still like the trauma of the person who supposed to protect you, coming at you in a way that's violent can be really terrifying for a child. I do my very best to be respectful, understanding, compassionate, and then also just try very gently share some of the research. I mean, one of the things that I find so exciting about positive discipline is it's spreading internationally. And some of the countries that are really embracing it are China, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, like places that like you might not think because of like the oppressive, you know, governments. You know, it's funny, again, like going back to Jane in the book, you know, when she talks about why traditional discipline is no longer effective in these days is she talks about like how in the 50s in America at least, you know, we still pretty much had the model that dad was the one in charge. So children had this model of watching mom be compliant to what dad said. So they had a model of what compliance looked like. And then women were like, you know, like we're... "This is not a good dress. We're going to go out, going get jobs. We're equal." It's like women demanded equal treatment. We have other marginalized groups who are demanding equal treatment. Why not children? Why don't children deserve? And again, it's funny. I feel like when I say that, parents are like, "They're kids." Yes, they're kids. That doesn't mean that they have the equal boundaries. But they're worthy of equal respect.

Lisa Weiss (46:43)

So.

Cristina Varriale (46:57)

Again, going back to the fact that they are human and they have inherent dignity and worth. So they deserve to be treated with the same respect that you would treat your colleague or your friend.

Lisa Weiss (47:08)

Yes, absolutely. And I think that is such like a wonderful, I don't know, just a wonderful perspective and framework. And it's a shame that I feel like to even in my graduate program, this was not something that like people talked about, and especially not in undergraduate psychology courses, child psychology courses, definitely not. So I think this is, it's just such helpful information and being mindful of our time, I think it'd be so helpful to put in some of the information or links that you talked about today, especially with Dan Siegel's the handbrain, as well as just like maybe even like a link to the positive discipline book and some other resources for parents and caregivers and teachers because I know even on the website there are so many different resources for

Cristina Varriale (47:57)

Just some sort of information, Yeah, fantastic. Yeah, I'd be happy to drop those in. I mean, just Positivediscipline.com. You can go, all the books are available. There's, you know, the courses are available. You can look and find where courses are being taught. You know, one of the things I find disappointing is that since the pandemic, a lot of the trainings are virtual. And I haven't done... I did one small virtual training at my last school. But for me, part of what makes it so impactful is that it's so experiential. I'm sure, I mean, there's wonderful trainers. And I'm sure that they could get a really good experience if they wanted to do a virtual. But if you can find an in-person training someplace, I think that'd be amazing. They have the books. They have these tool cards, which are like 52 positive discipline strategies. You can pick one. Work on that for the whole week, see how it goes. And I think it's important for parents also to remember, your kids are all different. So you might have one strategy that works beautifully on your oldest and your youngest is like, "Yeah, try again." So it's good to have access to all that. There's just so many tools. So I would definitely, I would check out the website. And then for the Dan Siegel video, just go to YouTube and just type in Dan Siegel, it's S-I-E-G-E-L, brain in hand, and you'll find it.

Lisa Weiss (49:21)

That is wonderful. And I think it's going to be so helpful for parents and for teachers. And I have one last question for you. So if someone listening today is feeling overwhelmed as a parent or teacher, what would you say to them?

Cristina Varriale (49:35)

Take a breath because you're doing great and you know, it's it's the parents who think they're doing wonderful that I worry about. Like I've yet to be a parent who's like, "I got this, like I am the best." Like I remember yeah, I was talking to my girlfriend once and she was worried about a situation with her child and she like, "I, they're gonna end up in therapy." And I was like, "They're all going to end up in therapy and good, they should. Like I hope they all end up in therapy. And if you were the perfect parent, then they'd be in therapy talking about how you were too perfect." So, you you just have to do your best, you know, every, and every day is an opportunity to start again. So you have a bad day, you come home, you flip your lid, you go in, you take your break, you regulate, you come out, you repair, and then you try again the next day. You know, it's just, you're, again, there's no such thing as the perfect parent. So let's stop judging. Let's stop judging each other. Let's stop judging ourselves. And each day, just try to be the best and know that we're going to fall short. And then that's okay, because we'll try again tomorrow. They are really resilient, and they're really forgiving.

Lisa Weiss (50:36)

Yes, and as you said before, too, like being a lifelong learner and leaning into this. And I don't know, just if you're inspired after listening in today to do your own research. And if for our listeners, if you'd like to schedule consult or schedule sessions with Cristina, I will also leave our information in the description of the video. But it is as easy as going to bravemindsnj.com. So I so appreciate your time today. This was so informative and I learned some new stuff today too. So I really appreciate it.

Cristina Varriale (51:10)

Lisa, I so appreciate this opportunity. Thank you so much. And this is, I love what you're doing for Brave Minds. You know, for those that are listening, this is such an amazing practice. And I feel like this was like what my journey with positive discipline, I feel like led me to Brave Minds because it's honestly the first place I've ever worked where I feel fully seen, valued and treated as an adult.

Lisa Weiss (51:37)

Well, I so appreciate that. And we are so grateful to have you as part of our team. You bring in such an amazing and unique perspective. So thank you so much.

Cristina Varriale (51:45)

Yeah, okay, sounds good. Thanks so much Lisa. Have a great rest of the day.

Lisa Weiss (51:49)

Thank you, you too, take care, bye.